Troy - (the movie, that is)

[Francis A. Miniter]

It finally made it to the cable movie channels, so I watched it. A few comments.

1. A blond Achilles?

2. Paris and Helen come into Troy in a procession with CONFETTI being thrown?

3. The Greek ships resemble triremes in design?

4. Achilles is the first Greek to set foot on Trojan land?

5. Patroclus is Achilles' cousin, not his lover?

6. Achilles is heterosexual?

7. Menelaos gets killed?

8. Agamemnon gets killed?

9. Seven years gets compressed to about 17 days?

10. No gods??? I miss cow-eyed Hera.

11. Achilles' tent resembles that of Valentino.


Francis A. Miniter

[Erich Schneider]

Post by Francis A. Miniter
5. Patroclus is Achilles' cousin, not his lover?
6. Achilles is heterosexual?

The text of the Iliad itself does not state explicitly that the two
are lovers, or that Achilles has sex with men. And Patroclus does come
to the court of Achilles' father as an exile, so they are not blood
cousins but there is certainly a familial relationship there.

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Francis A. Miniter
It finally made it to the cable movie channels, so I watched it. A few comments.
1. A blond Achilles?
2. Paris and Helen come into Troy in a procession with CONFETTI being

thrown?

Post by Francis A. Miniter
3. The Greek ships resemble triremes in design?
4. Achilles is the first Greek to set foot on Trojan land?
5. Patroclus is Achilles' cousin, not his lover?
6. Achilles is heterosexual?
7. Menelaos gets killed?
8. Agamemnon gets killed?
9. Seven years gets compressed to about 17 days?
10. No gods??? I miss cow-eyed Hera.
11. Achilles' tent resembles that of Valentino.
Francis A. Miniter

It sounds as if I'm better off not having seen that.
BTW neither have I seen Oliver Stone' "Alexander".

Ed

P.S. I did read Colleen McCullough's "Song of Troy"; in which Odysseus comes
out as one of the most scheming, underhand devils imaginable, while Achilles
is a hero par excellence (not a psychopathic son of heaven!).

[Joe Bernstein]

Post by Francis A. Miniter
It finally made it to the cable movie channels, so I watched it. A few comments.
1. A blond Achilles?

Um. Is this anywhere contradicted? I thought blonds and blondes
were actually a) present and b) sought after in ancient Greece.

Post by Francis A. Miniter
2. Paris and Helen come into Troy in a procession with CONFETTI being thrown?

Well, except for the confetti part, why not?

Post by Francis A. Miniter
6. Achilles is heterosexual?

Given the text of the <Iliad>, he has to be at least bi. Remember
what his quarrel with Agamemnon was about in the first place.

Post by Francis A. Miniter
7. Menelaos gets killed?
8. Agamemnon gets killed?

Everyone dies someday, so why not? :-)

Post by Francis A. Miniter
9. Seven years gets compressed to about 17 days?

Let me get this straight. Given the opportunity to fudge the issue,
they instead went out of their way to *specify* how long it was
before the fight?

Note that this reduces Achilles's quarrel, mentioned above,
considerably in sympathetic appeal. Among other things.

Post by Francis A. Miniter
10. No gods??? I miss cow-eyed Hera.

"The <Iliad> as re-imagined by Lucan! See it now!"

No, I suppose they *didn't* use that in the advertising. Ah, well.

No, I'm not trying to defend the thing; I consciously chose to
miss it and am sticking with that. (<Empire> is the first of
the sandal epics since <Gladiator> that I've bothered with. I'm
very disturbed to find from my copy of Langer's <Encyclopedia>
that it's actually still within shouting distance of historical
accuracy. Anyway, though, the reviews for <Troy>, <King Arthur>,
and at least one other such have kept me away.) Anyway, I'm
just trying to play fair. Or something.

Joe Bernstein

[Francis A. Miniter]

Hi Joe,

Comments are interleaved.


Francis A. Miniter

Post by Joe Bernstein

Post by Francis A. Miniter
It finally made it to the cable movie channels, so I watched it. A few comments.
1. A blond Achilles?

Um. Is this anywhere contradicted? I thought blonds and blondes
were actually a) present and b) sought after in ancient Greece.

Post by Francis A. Miniter
2. Paris and Helen come into Troy in a procession with CONFETTI being thrown?

Well, except for the confetti part, why not?

It was the confetti I was reacting to. I re-imagined the confetti as
shards of pottery. It just was not the same.

Post by Joe Bernstein

Post by Francis A. Miniter
6. Achilles is heterosexual?

Given the text of the <Iliad>, he has to be at least bi. Remember
what his quarrel with Agamemnon was about in the first place.

When I read it, I thought Briseis was important to Achilles for her
symbolic value as a prize of war. His anger is not about the loss or
defiling of a sex object, but about the loss of honor that will be
perceived by others in having Agamemnon take anything away from him.
Briseis could have been a large vase. It would have been the same. In
the movie, they are lovers, explicitly.

Post by Joe Bernstein

Post by Francis A. Miniter
7. Menelaos gets killed?
8. Agamemnon gets killed?

Everyone dies someday, so why not? :-)


So no need for Aeschylus to write the Orestia trilogy.

Post by Joe Bernstein

Post by Francis A. Miniter
9. Seven years gets compressed to about 17 days?

Let me get this straight. Given the opportunity to fudge the issue,
they instead went out of their way to *specify* how long it was
before the fight?

Yes. They are sufficiently explicit about days that you can count them
while watching the film and not get distracted.

Post by Joe Bernstein
Note that this reduces Achilles's quarrel, mentioned above,
considerably in sympathetic appeal. Among other things.

Post by Francis A. Miniter
10. No gods??? I miss cow-eyed Hera.

"The <Iliad> as re-imagined by Lucan! See it now!"
No, I suppose they *didn't* use that in the advertising. Ah, well.
No, I'm not trying to defend the thing; I consciously chose to
miss it and am sticking with that. (<Empire> is the first of
the sandal epics since <Gladiator> that I've bothered with. I'm
very disturbed to find from my copy of Langer's <Encyclopedia>
that it's actually still within shouting distance of historical
accuracy. Anyway, though, the reviews for <Troy>, <King Arthur>,
and at least one other such have kept me away.) Anyway, I'm
just trying to play fair. Or something.
Joe Bernstein

[William C Waterhouse]

Post by Francis A. Miniter
...

Post by Joe Bernstein

Post by Francis A. Miniter
comments.
1. A blond Achilles?

Um. Is this anywhere contradicted? I thought blonds and blondes
were actually a) present and b) sought after in ancient Greece.

Achilles is described as having "yellow" (xanthos) hair in Iliad XXIII, 140.

Post by Francis A. Miniter

Post by Joe Bernstein

Post by Francis A. Miniter
6. Achilles is heterosexual?

Given the text of the <Iliad>, he has to be at least bi. Remember
what his quarrel with Agamemnon was about in the first place.

When I read it, I thought Briseis was important to Achilles for her
symbolic value as a prize of war. His anger is not about the loss or
defiling of a sex object, but about the loss of honor that will be
perceived by others in having Agamemnon take anything away from him.
Briseis could have been a large vase. It would have been the same. In
the movie, they are lovers, explicitly.

Obviously the insult is the main cause of the anger; but the woman
is for use, not just for show. After Priam comes to Achilles and
is given a place to sleep, we read

while Achilles lay in an inner room of the house,
with fair Briseis by his side.
(XXIV, 675-6; Butler translation)

Similarly back at the time of the "embassy," when they go to bed,

Achilles slept in an inner room, and beside him the daughter
of Phorbas lovely Diomede, whom he had carried off from Lesbos.
Patroclus lay on the other side of the room, and with him fair
Iphis whom Achilles had given him when he took Scyros the city
of Enyeus.
(IX, 663-668; Butler translation)

Furthermore, the ambassadors say Agamemnon will

swear a great oath that he has never gone up into her couch nor lain down
with her, though it is right [themis] for men and women to do so.
(IX, 274-276; Butler translation).


William C. Waterhouse
Penn State

[Neeraj Mathur]

Post by Francis A. Miniter

Post by Joe Bernstein

6. Achilles is heterosexual?

Given the text of the <Iliad>, he has to be at least bi. Remember
what his quarrel with Agamemnon was about in the first place.

When I read it, I thought Briseis was important to Achilles for her
symbolic value as a prize of war. His anger is not about the loss or
defiling of a sex object, but about the loss of honor that will be
perceived by others in having Agamemnon take anything away from him.
Briseis could have been a large vase. It would have been the same. In
the movie, they are lovers, explicitly.

Well in the embassy of Book 9, there is some discussion of this.
Achilles says of her, 'te:n d'ephile:sa' (I can't remember the line
number and don't have a text to hand) - which almost seems to raise more
questions about their relationship. From the way that it's put in
context, it does seem to indicate that there was a strong emotional
attachment between them (the sexual relationship is given at other
points, as William points out). But if this is the case, what on earth
is it in the aorist for? Has she now become tainted, as far as he's
concerned? Is he so consumed with anger and hate that he can no longer
love? Yet he has concern for Phoinix nevertheless.

A tough issue, and I remember some interesting points being made in the
various commentaries ad loc. It seems safe to say, though, that Achilles
engaged in heterosexual relationships. Don't forget that he has fathered
a son.

Neeraj Mathur

[AVC]

Post by Francis A. Miniter
It finally made it to the cable movie channels, so I watched it. A few comments.
7. Menelaos gets killed?
8. Agamemnon gets killed?

Yes, that was what made me literally jump up from my seat in the cinema
(much to the annoyance of my husband ;-) ). Ofcourse it meant the end
of my husband ever again accompanying me to ancient-history-movies: I
comment too much....

'Kingdom of heaven' was kind of a compromise ....


Regards,
Adelheid